Problems with christianity

The-King · 02-19-2008

Hi. I'm fairly unknown on this forum and I thought I should post a bit more. Recently I've been questioning everything about christian. I was actually born into a christian family, went to a christian school from kindergarden to year 12 (i am currently in year 12) and I have a a christian girl friend(one of those hardcore christians). So christianity has been pretty much shoved into my throat and I've just been trying to find my own problems with the religion I believe in, or atleast.. used to. I was looking for inconsistencies and just contradictions in the bible, and usually I ask my girl friend to answer then, she can't really though :P, anyways Some of the ones I have thought of myself are:

We are made in the image of god, yet everytime in the old testament he contacts humans he appears in the form of a cloud.
Revelations is meant to predict the future yet it is written in past tense.
In the beggining, humans were made to be perfect and live forever. Adam was perfect so therefore he wasn't going to die until he ate the forbidden apple and became imperfect. Jesus dies even though he is 'perfect' and physically shouldn't be able to die. (I'm also assuming 'sin' kills people).

I have more but I forgot them while writing this topic. Those questions are probably answerable for example, I asked my bible teacher at school the first question and he said that the cloud represents the presense of God, I find it silly, however, since he is already everywhere(omnipresent) and the cloud is only in a particular place and not 'everywhere' whatever.

What I would like to know is your own ideas and contradictions you have thought up about christianity. Also while I was searching around I saw this page which I reckon we should discuss since I think some of the things the guy writes is good(he clearly has thought this through more then I have).

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Anyways, I'd like to urge to you guys that this is a discussion and not a flame-fest war with athiests vs christians.

One last thing, If there truly is a God then I think he would be proud that I question my own faith rather than just blindly believe into it, afterall I'm not going to let someone else decide my eternal life(if there is any).

/discuss

MrOrange · 02-19-2008

I'm short on time so most of my answers are from on-top of my head. Also I will be speaking in Christain matter so my view will concentrate on Christainity.

In the Old Testiment, God is actually described in human characteristics. Such as Moses saw God's "Back" and God "walked" through the Garden.

Revelations I really didn't check upon it but it was written by John I believe after he had a vision on the future. So he saw the events and he written them in past tense. I'm really not sure about this and I need more time to think about it.

In the Old Testament, people offered sacerfices as a subsitute for sin. As the wages of sin is death but you can temperarily use sacerfices as a subsitute. Not sure how it's really done but that is the original purpose of sacerficing animals to God. Jesus is sometimes called the Lamb of God. Because it was original intended for him to become the Ultimate Sacerfice. Could you honestly believe that a better sacerfice could be made them the Son of God? So his death meant that we have the Ultimate Subsitute but to the point where we no longer need another subsitute and which is why God will forgive you if you just repent. Which means asking for forgiveness AND turn away from it.

And yes, it's sometimes a good thing to question your own faith. It's pretty much whatever doesn't kill your faith just makes it stronger kind of thing.

I'll look at that site later on.

King_Leopold · 02-19-2008

My opinion on God is pretty much simple. I don't know if there is one. From a purely rational point point of view, it seems unlikely, but then again I won't deny the possibility. Do your best to leave a decent a life - help others, dont hurt people, etc. If there is a heaven/paradise and I don't get in because I didn't go to church every week, or I didnt keep kosher, or I didn't make the Hajj to Mecca, yet I lived as a good person making the world a better place, is that really a heaven I would want to be in anyways?

MrOrange · 02-19-2008

That's great King. But that wasn't what the topic was about. It was about Problems with Christianity. Not if you believe in religion or not.

Also a common misunderstanding is that a Church is not a building. It is any place where you go to worship God. I could go to a dump and I could call that place my church.

You don't need to keep kosher unless you are jewish. If you follow Christianity or Catholicism then you don't need to do it because they when Jesus came and did his stuff. Simplely told. Many of the old laws were not required anymore.

And the Hajj to Mecca is not even needed for really anything.

I honestly hate the people who are telling you people that you HAVE to do these things. It's good if you do but it's not required. And if you're made to go then that whole point of going is ruinned.

King_Leopold · 02-19-2008

He asked for ideas about Christianity. My ideas about christianity are the same as they are about every religion, so I gave those, and they concern religious regulations. These are regulations, not fun options for people to do if they feel like. I didn't say anything about believing in religion, or if people should. I gave my personal religious views, because they are directly related my points about regulations.

My point was about religious regulations. By going to church, I was thinking of Catholicism, where you have to go to church every weekend and receive the eucharist. No, it doesn't have to be in an actual 'church' building, it could very well be in a dump, but you are HAVE to follow a ritual, and if you dont there are supposedly consequences regarding your soul.

The same is true regarding keeping Kosher for Jews (though I know less about the specifics of Judaism). Keeping kosher has nothing to do with christianity, it was just an example of a regulation in another religion.

The hajj is one of the five pillars of Islam, these pillars are the DUTIES of every Muslim, not suggestions. That is why I listed it.

MrOrange · 02-19-2008

Catholism is a branch of Christianity.

I can't talk for other religions and their regulations. All I can talk about is what I know and my faith which is Christianity.

Anyway this isn't a battle of religions and their regulations. That is a subject for another topic. The-King's questions are what to be discussed. Anything else is off-topic. It was my fault for not stopping it from going off-topic.

King_Leopold · 02-19-2008

Don't accuse me of going off topic, I responded to specific issues raised in the first post about if there are contradictions that bother me. The concept of a god who cares about my specific beliefs, regulations, or practices bothers me. If he is god, why should he care about if I believe in him, as long as I am doing the right thing. Looking at say the 10 commandments, the last 7 make sense, because they are about things that hurt others. By why should God care if I worship other gods? It makes god sound very shallow to me.

And yes I am aware catholicism is a branch of christianity, i went to catholic schools, from kindergarten until I started college. I specifically said catholicism because it is the branch of christianity I know most about.

About the book of revelations, to the best of my knowledge its supposed to be written based off a dream/vision, its recording what was seen in this vision.

Also, about sin and dying, I have never heard of the concept that it is supposed to be sin that kills people. Even if you want to go by literal interprations, in catholicism, people became mortal because of Adam's sin. This does not mean to imply that everyone else in the future is immortal until they sin, simply that people as a whole became mortal.

MrOrange · 02-19-2008

I wasn't accusing you of going off topic. I was accusing myself of going off-topic. I have a temper and it was only a matter of time before I lost my temper. If we continued that train of thought it would only end with both of us angry and mad at each other and one of us doing something we woud regret. Most likely that would've been me. I'm not as mature as you and seeing how I should be about 4 years younger it's reasonable. And I just can't simplely not look at the topic either. That's hard to do. I'm actually blaming myself and only myself. I simplely did not read the first post clearly enough which ended me in a place where I would've start flaming if I didn't stop right there. And I'm sorry for that.

Well anyway fresh start.

The 10 commandments. I believe the first 4 are about God and the second half is about how you should treat others. So the first three should be...
*You should have no other Gods before me
*You should not make an idiol of anything
*You should not misuse the Lord's name in vain

The first two goes together. You should not make a god of anything and you should not have any gods before God.

This is purely what I think. If you believe that God created the world then God pretty much created everything. So if you make an idiol or god of anything then you are making a god out of something God created and if you make something an idiol then you're not saying God is God. You're saying that this idiol is God. So God doesn't want you to make something he created and put it above him.

And for do not misuse God's name, well you wouldn't want someone to talk bad about you and by using God's name in vain like "God Damn it" you are starting that you have power over God. Because you are really saying "God sent it to hell."

The book of Revelation is a prophecy. And Prophets see visions or know things that other's do not. So I'm guessing what king said.

The Wages of Sin is death. It is somewhere in the Bible but I forgot where. And were born sinners since the father's sin is carried by the son. And because we are the sons and daughters of Adam, we are carrying his sin which leads to our deaths. Which was the point of sacerfices and the reason why Jesus had to die on the cross becasue Jesus put all the sin on himself and he died instead of us. But then he came back to life so he died and the sin died with him but Jesus came back to life and the sin didn't. Which is why we repent.

That was completely in my opinion so I could be very far off.

The-King · 02-20-2008

I suppose I should have asked about problems in the bible. What I have been doing really is looking for inconsistencies in the bible and all of that. I was wondering what you guys thought about it and also thought about the site that I posted. And also I wanted to know what problems you saw in the bible. Common ones people think of are, "If God is a loving god why does he command his people to kill others or why does he allow abortions and babies to be defects at birth."

MrOrange · 02-20-2008

I don't think that God commanded anyone to kill after Jesus was born. But in the old testiment there wasn't many ways to be forgiven. Back then, it was if you sin too much and you are too corrupt then God can't wait and you will be judged now with death. But that's in my opinion.

God is a loving god, and my parents are loving parents but they still will kill me if I bring home bad grades.

He allows abortions because God has always given us a choice. If you watch the Matrix, you know that the Matrix was build from choice. The first one was supose to be a paradise but people rejected because of it. And it seemed that people accepted a Matrix when you have the right of choice. In the way beginning, Adam and Eve was given the choice of eatting the fruit or not eating the fruit. Moses could lead the people out of slavery or not bring them out of slavary. If God really wanted people to follow his words exactly then we would be robots that followed his every word exactly.

Defects is a harder question. The simple cheat answer would be that God had a plan for everything. But I don't like those types of answers. Another idea would be that the parents knew the risks and should've thought about it because they had the choice of having the kid or not. Or the Mother didn't take care of the baby as well as she should have.

Royal Disaster · 02-20-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_Leopold

My opinion on God is pretty much simple. I don't know if there is one. From a purely rational point point of view, it seems unlikely, but then again I won't deny the possibility. Do your best to leave a decent a life - help others, dont hurt people, etc. If there is a heaven/paradise and I don't get in because I didn't go to church every week, or I didnt keep kosher, or I didn't make the Hajj to Mecca, yet I lived as a good person making the world a better place, is that really a heaven I would want to be in anyways?

I believe that it is faith, not actions, that determine your afterlife. Perhaps, if Hitler believed in what was right but acted as he did he may have went to heaven. After all, we are like a game to God. I believe he created us for entertainment. I doubt God would want to observe a perfect world in which everyone shares and gets along. However I do believe that everyone should strive to be good.

The-King · 02-20-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrOrange

I don't think that God commanded anyone to kill after Jesus was born. But in the old testiment there wasn't many ways to be forgiven. Back then, it was if you sin too much and you are too corrupt then God can't wait and you will be judged now with death. But that's in my opinion.

God is a loving god, and my parents are loving parents but they still will kill me if I bring home bad grades.

He allows abortions because God has always given us a choice. If you watch the Matrix, you know that the Matrix was build from choice. The first one was supose to be a paradise but people rejected because of it. And it seemed that people accepted a Matrix when you have the right of choice. In the way beginning, Adam and Eve was given the choice of eatting the fruit or not eating the fruit. Moses could lead the people out of slavery or not bring them out of slavary. If God really wanted people to follow his words exactly then we would be robots that followed his every word exactly.

Defects is a harder question. The simple cheat answer would be that God had a plan for everything. But I don't like those types of answers. Another idea would be that the parents knew the risks and should've thought about it because they had the choice of having the kid or not. Or the Mother didn't take care of the baby as well as she should have.

I would rather be a robot then have a chance to go to hell for eternity.

MrOrange · 02-20-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Disaster

I believe that it is faith, not actions, that determine your afterlife. Perhaps, if Hitler believed in what was right but acted as he did he may have went to heaven. After all, we are like a game to God. I believe he created us for entertainment. I doubt God would want to observe a perfect world in which everyone shares and gets along. However I do believe that everyone should strive to be good.

That is good a theory but it would also bring up that why did God give his only son to save the world if it was just for fun? For entertainment? Jesus is God so another way to look at it is that why did God suffer to save us? I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to play Warcraft if I was going to end up suffering.

LordForcystus · 02-20-2008

One of my big problems with christianity is the blatant holiday "stealing". For example, Christmas, the day that christians use to celebrate Jesus' birth is December 25th right? It just so happens that the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia (which was a festival to honor their gods) starts a week before, and ends on December 25th with a "grand finale" including the sacrifice of a citizen. The celebration of Christmas on December 25th started just before the major conversion of the Roman people.

And that's not the only time they've done that. Halloween is actually the same deal. Halloween was originally a celtic pagan celebration named Samhein where people would dress up as demons and other frightening things (I believe they did that to ward off spirits or something, it's been a while since I read about this). Well the Christian Church founded a holiday the day after Samhein when they began trying to convert the Celtic people, named All Saints' Day, made to honor the saints which didn't have their own feast day. Eventually the name changed, generation after generation (All Saint's Eve, All Hallow's Eve, Halloween) and became the Halloween we know today.

I'm sure they've done that with other holidays, those are just the two I know of personally. Personally I find that as a problem, especially if you ask a bible study leader or w/e where the celebration of Halloween came from, they'll tell you it STARTED with All Saint's Day, then poor people began going out the night before, dressing up as a saint, and were given food (traditionally donut-like pastries) instead of modern-day candy. Also they'll tell you Christmas is the anniversary of Jesus' birth, not just the celebration.

The fact that they effectually "made up" a holiday near the same time as a big pagan celebration of the people they had been currently attempting to convert, at least twice, makes one wonder what else they "made up" when they were attempting to convert people.

MrOrange · 02-20-2008

December 25th is not the actual day of Jesus's birth. Some people even say that the actual birth could be sometime in January. And some even say it was not even in winter.

But to tell you the truth I think that most holidays lost their original meaning. Christmas is more about Santa Clause and presents with snow and bright lights with cookies and eggnoge. And Easter, the day when we are suppose to celebrate when Jesus came back to life, became more about the easter bunny and eggs and chocolate. Apparently Eggs are evil.

Also you also have to remember that when the Catholics invaded many places to spread their religion, they made it more "fluent" by adapting it in a way where people would become catholic without leaving behind their old beliefs.

Over the year, people are starting to forget the actual reason for the holidays and adopted the new reasons for it. And not just in holidays. And I person think because of that. Parents are now forcing their kids to follow the traditional way which in the end just makes them hate it and leave it behind altogether.

Royal Disaster · 02-20-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrOrange

That is good a theory but it would also bring up that why did God give his only son to save the world if it was just for fun? For entertainment? Jesus is God so another way to look at it is that why did God suffer to save us? I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to play Warcraft if I was going to end up suffering.

I still struggle to understand why Jesus did come and why the sin of Adam and Eve suddenly everyones fault.

MrOrange · 02-20-2008

Right now, if you're father was to start gambling and got into seriouls debt that he couldn't pay and then it. When he dies his family would get the debt. And when your mother dies then you would get the debt. And when you die then it would be carried to your kids and so on and so on. Think if Jesus as the Super Rich Uncle who is finally able to pay that large debt. But the problem is that you are your many decentent are still gamblers and are still putting on debt and repentence is pretty much asking God to pay off your debts and you learn your lesson and don't do it again.

UnleashWC3 · 02-20-2008

Like any religon, youll have people who blindly go with it. So long as it makes them happy, who cares? Every religon has its flaws. Theres no perfect religon, just the perfect religon for you.

AgentRonin316 · 02-21-2008

@ LordForcystus:

Easter was also highjacked by Roman Catholocism.

@ MrOrange:

I really liked your analogy with gambling, I intend to use it.
Also Halloween and Christmas have become little more than celebrations of American affluence and decadence. Look at how much money we spend on those two holidays. And most of the Halloween costumes for girls/women? Are we sending a message to the children of our country that males can be whatever they want, while females can only be sluts?

Enough of my Halloween rant.

I don't believe that existance is just a great big WC3 map to God. There is emotion invested in creation by God, (For God so loved the world) and there is emotional feedback from us. Someone once told me when I was younger that if we didn't have the capacity for free will, then we would have no capacity to love anything, God or not. Love without free will is not love.

The-King · 02-22-2008

Why does judas die twice in the bible 2 different ways?

"So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:5)

"(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out...)" (Acts 1:18)

I got this from the site I posted (contradictions page).

Titan · 02-22-2008

A different Judas.. idiot. Acts is in OT matthew is in NT. Thats probably one of the stupidest things ive seen. Thats kinda like saying that there is never 2 people with the same name, or rather, if someone named bob dies, every bob dies. Learn the religion before you criticize?

The-King · 02-22-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titan

A different Judas.. idiot. Acts is in OT matthew is in NT. Thats probably one of the stupidest things ive seen. Thats kinda like saying that there is never 2 people with the same name, or rather, if someone named bob dies, every bob dies. Learn the religion before you criticize?

umm firstly, please don't be so aggressive matey, it's a question and a dam good question and I know alot about the religion. Firstly acts is in the new testament, not the old one. And he was also the same Judas because in the earlier verses it talks about the SAME Judas... anyone else want a try?

MrOrange · 02-22-2008

Forgot that you posted that question.

Acts is right afterh the gosopel of John.

The Bible is a collections of smaller books added together by wisemen. That is how the first Bible came to be. And because different author wrote it, they may leave things out. Such as a theif mocked Jesus when he was on the Cross and it ended right there. While in another book, it shows that that theif repended afterwards.

What you read in Acts is said to be what happened after he was hung. It could be that in Mattew, he did not see a reason why he should put such graphic detail in and just said he hung himself because that is how he died. While Luke, the writter of Acts, must have thought differently and added it because that was he true physical punishment.

I would need to look in more-depth but I'm too tired and lack the time to do so.

Canadiandude · 02-23-2008

Yes, I quite agree. It states in both versions that Judas got some dough he was not exacley happy with, and that he hung himself.
And as far as Christianity goes.... Well I believe in it (although am having some
issues).
And King, as for your questions, yes I think we were made in the image of God, but also he is omnipotent so if he wanted to appear as a rainbow fish with stars for eyeballs, then he most likely could:P.
The revelations thing I'll go with, as was said, it was dreams and visions and stuff. So the talking like it already happened, I would say, is that he's talking about his dreams that he already had rather than the message that the dreams were giving.
And it not being possible for God to die, well, he says it himself after Pilot (sorry if that the wrong dude, I'm quite tired and can't really remember) said that he had the power to kill him...Aaaaand I can't quite remember the response, but yeah.

Ayuoobi · 02-23-2008

NOTE: I suggest anybody who is gonna read this LONG post of mine do it in sections. Read a bit a day or something, or else it's gonna be hell to get to the bottom...But kudos and wow if you actually read this from start to finish, lol. Most people are too lazy, so yea, i suggest reading it bit by bit so that you don't get bored.

K so first i'm just going to post some responses to the link you sent king, only the ones concerning the general belief in God, because that includes Islam in it, wher

02-19-2008	#1
The-King Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 88	Problems with christianity Hi. I'm fairly unknown on this forum and I thought I should post a bit more. Recently I've been questioning everything about christian. I was actually born into a christian family, went to a christian school from kindergarden to year 12 (i am currently in year 12) and I have a a christian girl friend(one of those hardcore christians). So christianity has been pretty much shoved into my throat and I've just been trying to find my own problems with the religion I believe in, or atleast.. used to. I was looking for inconsistencies and just contradictions in the bible, and usually I ask my girl friend to answer then, she can't really though :P, anyways Some of the ones I have thought of myself are: We are made in the image of god, yet everytime in the old testament he contacts humans he appears in the form of a cloud. Revelations is meant to predict the future yet it is written in past tense. In the beggining, humans were made to be perfect and live forever. Adam was perfect so therefore he wasn't going to die until he ate the forbidden apple and became imperfect. Jesus dies even though he is 'perfect' and physically shouldn't be able to die. (I'm also assuming 'sin' kills people). I have more but I forgot them while writing this topic. Those questions are probably answerable for example, I asked my bible teacher at school the first question and he said that the cloud represents the presense of God, I find it silly, however, since he is already everywhere(omnipresent) and the cloud is only in a particular place and not 'everywhere' whatever. What I would like to know is your own ideas and contradictions you have thought up about christianity. Also while I was searching around I saw this page which I reckon we should discuss since I think some of the things the guy writes is good(he clearly has thought this through more then I have). [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Anyways, I'd like to urge to you guys that this is a discussion and not a flame-fest war with athiests vs christians. One last thing, If there truly is a God then I think he would be proud that I question my own faith rather than just blindly believe into it, afterall I'm not going to let someone else decide my eternal life(if there is any). /discuss

02-19-2008	#2
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity I'm short on time so most of my answers are from on-top of my head. Also I will be speaking in Christain matter so my view will concentrate on Christainity. In the Old Testiment, God is actually described in human characteristics. Such as Moses saw God's "Back" and God "walked" through the Garden. Revelations I really didn't check upon it but it was written by John I believe after he had a vision on the future. So he saw the events and he written them in past tense. I'm really not sure about this and I need more time to think about it. In the Old Testament, people offered sacerfices as a subsitute for sin. As the wages of sin is death but you can temperarily use sacerfices as a subsitute. Not sure how it's really done but that is the original purpose of sacerficing animals to God. Jesus is sometimes called the Lamb of God. Because it was original intended for him to become the Ultimate Sacerfice. Could you honestly believe that a better sacerfice could be made them the Son of God? So his death meant that we have the Ultimate Subsitute but to the point where we no longer need another subsitute and which is why God will forgive you if you just repent. Which means asking for forgiveness AND turn away from it. And yes, it's sometimes a good thing to question your own faith. It's pretty much whatever doesn't kill your faith just makes it stronger kind of thing. I'll look at that site later on.

02-19-2008	#3
King_Leopold Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,436	Re: Problems with christianity My opinion on God is pretty much simple. I don't know if there is one. From a purely rational point point of view, it seems unlikely, but then again I won't deny the possibility. Do your best to leave a decent a life - help others, dont hurt people, etc. If there is a heaven/paradise and I don't get in because I didn't go to church every week, or I didnt keep kosher, or I didn't make the Hajj to Mecca, yet I lived as a good person making the world a better place, is that really a heaven I would want to be in anyways? Go to this link, now. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-19-2008	#4
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity That's great King. But that wasn't what the topic was about. It was about Problems with Christianity. Not if you believe in religion or not. Also a common misunderstanding is that a Church is not a building. It is any place where you go to worship God. I could go to a dump and I could call that place my church. You don't need to keep kosher unless you are jewish. If you follow Christianity or Catholicism then you don't need to do it because they when Jesus came and did his stuff. Simplely told. Many of the old laws were not required anymore. And the Hajj to Mecca is not even needed for really anything. I honestly hate the people who are telling you people that you HAVE to do these things. It's good if you do but it's not required. And if you're made to go then that whole point of going is ruinned.

02-19-2008	#5
King_Leopold Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,436	Re: Problems with christianity He asked for ideas about Christianity. My ideas about christianity are the same as they are about every religion, so I gave those, and they concern religious regulations. These are regulations, not fun options for people to do if they feel like. I didn't say anything about believing in religion, or if people should. I gave my personal religious views, because they are directly related my points about regulations. My point was about religious regulations. By going to church, I was thinking of Catholicism, where you have to go to church every weekend and receive the eucharist. No, it doesn't have to be in an actual 'church' building, it could very well be in a dump, but you are HAVE to follow a ritual, and if you dont there are supposedly consequences regarding your soul. The same is true regarding keeping Kosher for Jews (though I know less about the specifics of Judaism). Keeping kosher has nothing to do with christianity, it was just an example of a regulation in another religion. The hajj is one of the five pillars of Islam, these pillars are the DUTIES of every Muslim, not suggestions. That is why I listed it. Go to this link, now. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Last edited by King_Leopold; 02-19-2008 at 05:41 PM.

02-19-2008	#6
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity Catholism is a branch of Christianity. I can't talk for other religions and their regulations. All I can talk about is what I know and my faith which is Christianity. Anyway this isn't a battle of religions and their regulations. That is a subject for another topic. The-King's questions are what to be discussed. Anything else is off-topic. It was my fault for not stopping it from going off-topic. Last edited by MrOrange; 02-19-2008 at 06:06 PM.

02-19-2008	#7
King_Leopold Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,436	Re: Problems with christianity Don't accuse me of going off topic, I responded to specific issues raised in the first post about if there are contradictions that bother me. The concept of a god who cares about my specific beliefs, regulations, or practices bothers me. If he is god, why should he care about if I believe in him, as long as I am doing the right thing. Looking at say the 10 commandments, the last 7 make sense, because they are about things that hurt others. By why should God care if I worship other gods? It makes god sound very shallow to me. And yes I am aware catholicism is a branch of christianity, i went to catholic schools, from kindergarten until I started college. I specifically said catholicism because it is the branch of christianity I know most about. About the book of revelations, to the best of my knowledge its supposed to be written based off a dream/vision, its recording what was seen in this vision. Also, about sin and dying, I have never heard of the concept that it is supposed to be sin that kills people. Even if you want to go by literal interprations, in catholicism, people became mortal because of Adam's sin. This does not mean to imply that everyone else in the future is immortal until they sin, simply that people as a whole became mortal. Go to this link, now. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-19-2008	#8
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity I wasn't accusing you of going off topic. I was accusing myself of going off-topic. I have a temper and it was only a matter of time before I lost my temper. If we continued that train of thought it would only end with both of us angry and mad at each other and one of us doing something we woud regret. Most likely that would've been me. I'm not as mature as you and seeing how I should be about 4 years younger it's reasonable. And I just can't simplely not look at the topic either. That's hard to do. I'm actually blaming myself and only myself. I simplely did not read the first post clearly enough which ended me in a place where I would've start flaming if I didn't stop right there. And I'm sorry for that. Well anyway fresh start. The 10 commandments. I believe the first 4 are about God and the second half is about how you should treat others. So the first three should be... You should have no other Gods before me You should not make an idiol of anything *You should not misuse the Lord's name in vain The first two goes together. You should not make a god of anything and you should not have any gods before God. This is purely what I think. If you believe that God created the world then God pretty much created everything. So if you make an idiol or god of anything then you are making a god out of something God created and if you make something an idiol then you're not saying God is God. You're saying that this idiol is God. So God doesn't want you to make something he created and put it above him. And for do not misuse God's name, well you wouldn't want someone to talk bad about you and by using God's name in vain like "God Damn it" you are starting that you have power over God. Because you are really saying "God sent it to hell." The book of Revelation is a prophecy. And Prophets see visions or know things that other's do not. So I'm guessing what king said. The Wages of Sin is death. It is somewhere in the Bible but I forgot where. And were born sinners since the father's sin is carried by the son. And because we are the sons and daughters of Adam, we are carrying his sin which leads to our deaths. Which was the point of sacerfices and the reason why Jesus had to die on the cross becasue Jesus put all the sin on himself and he died instead of us. But then he came back to life so he died and the sin died with him but Jesus came back to life and the sin didn't. Which is why we repent. That was completely in my opinion so I could be very far off.

02-20-2008	#9
The-King Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 88	Re: Problems with christianity I suppose I should have asked about problems in the bible. What I have been doing really is looking for inconsistencies in the bible and all of that. I was wondering what you guys thought about it and also thought about the site that I posted. And also I wanted to know what problems you saw in the bible. Common ones people think of are, "If God is a loving god why does he command his people to kill others or why does he allow abortions and babies to be defects at birth."

02-20-2008	#10
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity I don't think that God commanded anyone to kill after Jesus was born. But in the old testiment there wasn't many ways to be forgiven. Back then, it was if you sin too much and you are too corrupt then God can't wait and you will be judged now with death. But that's in my opinion. God is a loving god, and my parents are loving parents but they still will kill me if I bring home bad grades. He allows abortions because God has always given us a choice. If you watch the Matrix, you know that the Matrix was build from choice. The first one was supose to be a paradise but people rejected because of it. And it seemed that people accepted a Matrix when you have the right of choice. In the way beginning, Adam and Eve was given the choice of eatting the fruit or not eating the fruit. Moses could lead the people out of slavery or not bring them out of slavary. If God really wanted people to follow his words exactly then we would be robots that followed his every word exactly. Defects is a harder question. The simple cheat answer would be that God had a plan for everything. But I don't like those types of answers. Another idea would be that the parents knew the risks and should've thought about it because they had the choice of having the kid or not. Or the Mother didn't take care of the baby as well as she should have.

02-20-2008	#15
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity December 25th is not the actual day of Jesus's birth. Some people even say that the actual birth could be sometime in January. And some even say it was not even in winter. But to tell you the truth I think that most holidays lost their original meaning. Christmas is more about Santa Clause and presents with snow and bright lights with cookies and eggnoge. And Easter, the day when we are suppose to celebrate when Jesus came back to life, became more about the easter bunny and eggs and chocolate. Apparently Eggs are evil. Also you also have to remember that when the Catholics invaded many places to spread their religion, they made it more "fluent" by adapting it in a way where people would become catholic without leaving behind their old beliefs. Over the year, people are starting to forget the actual reason for the holidays and adopted the new reasons for it. And not just in holidays. And I person think because of that. Parents are now forcing their kids to follow the traditional way which in the end just makes them hate it and leave it behind altogether.

02-20-2008	#17
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity Right now, if you're father was to start gambling and got into seriouls debt that he couldn't pay and then it. When he dies his family would get the debt. And when your mother dies then you would get the debt. And when you die then it would be carried to your kids and so on and so on. Think if Jesus as the Super Rich Uncle who is finally able to pay that large debt. But the problem is that you are your many decentent are still gamblers and are still putting on debt and repentence is pretty much asking God to pay off your debts and you learn your lesson and don't do it again.

02-20-2008	#18
UnleashWC3 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 17	Re: Problems with christianity Like any religon, youll have people who blindly go with it. So long as it makes them happy, who cares? Every religon has its flaws. Theres no perfect religon, just the perfect religon for you.

02-21-2008	#19
AgentRonin316 Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5	Re: Problems with christianity @ LordForcystus: Easter was also highjacked by Roman Catholocism. @ MrOrange: I really liked your analogy with gambling, I intend to use it. Also Halloween and Christmas have become little more than celebrations of American affluence and decadence. Look at how much money we spend on those two holidays. And most of the Halloween costumes for girls/women? Are we sending a message to the children of our country that males can be whatever they want, while females can only be sluts? Enough of my Halloween rant. I don't believe that existance is just a great big WC3 map to God. There is emotion invested in creation by God, (For God so loved the world) and there is emotional feedback from us. Someone once told me when I was younger that if we didn't have the capacity for free will, then we would have no capacity to love anything, God or not. Love without free will is not love. From State-Property at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-22-2008	#20
The-King Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 88	Re: Problems with christianity Why does judas die twice in the bible 2 different ways? "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." (Matthew 27:5) "(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out...)" (Acts 1:18) I got this from the site I posted (contradictions page).

02-22-2008	#21
Titan Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Seven blocks down from your drug dealer Posts: 2,672	Re: Problems with christianity A different Judas.. idiot. Acts is in OT matthew is in NT. Thats probably one of the stupidest things ive seen. Thats kinda like saying that there is never 2 people with the same name, or rather, if someone named bob dies, every bob dies. Learn the religion before you criticize? [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

02-22-2008	#23
MrOrange Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,992	Re: Problems with christianity Forgot that you posted that question. Acts is right afterh the gosopel of John. The Bible is a collections of smaller books added together by wisemen. That is how the first Bible came to be. And because different author wrote it, they may leave things out. Such as a theif mocked Jesus when he was on the Cross and it ended right there. While in another book, it shows that that theif repended afterwards. What you read in Acts is said to be what happened after he was hung. It could be that in Mattew, he did not see a reason why he should put such graphic detail in and just said he hung himself because that is how he died. While Luke, the writter of Acts, must have thought differently and added it because that was he true physical punishment. I would need to look in more-depth but I'm too tired and lack the time to do so.

02-23-2008	#24
Canadiandude Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1	Re: Problems with christianity Yes, I quite agree. It states in both versions that Judas got some dough he was not exacley happy with, and that he hung himself. And as far as Christianity goes.... Well I believe in it (although am having some issues). And King, as for your questions, yes I think we were made in the image of God, but also he is omnipotent so if he wanted to appear as a rainbow fish with stars for eyeballs, then he most likely could:P. The revelations thing I'll go with, as was said, it was dreams and visions and stuff. So the talking like it already happened, I would say, is that he's talking about his dreams that he already had rather than the message that the dreams were giving. And it not being possible for God to die, well, he says it himself after Pilot (sorry if that the wrong dude, I'm quite tired and can't really remember) said that he had the power to kill him...Aaaaand I can't quite remember the response, but yeah.