LordForcystus

I just posted something on the Gay Marriage topic. In it I talk about how the Separation of Church and State doesn't actually work. This lead me to form the thought that Democracy actually "undoes itself" as in contradictions.

I say this because:
Democracy is "For the People by the People", Liberty for all, and Equality between all.

Democracy is ruled by the majority (thus "For the People by the People").
Since a majority is a MAJORity, then most people must vote/think the same way, this makes Democracy work.

BUT!! It also is supposed to give liberty and equality to all, but if the majority doesn't want equality/liberty for a certain minority, they get what they want, because "Majority Rules". Until you get a new majority which thinks a new way and wants to allow equality/liberty for the same minority, Democracy stops working.

But what if the "old majority" has taught their children the same morals and principles as they had? Then the "new majority" (the children) would be very similar (in some ways) to the "old majority". If this trend continues, wouldn't Democracy stay halted for that certain minority indefinitely?

And if Democracy halts for one minority, doesn't that contradict all of Democracy, thus forcing Democracy to be something that is simply: "For the People by the People" with no Liberty/Equality for all? Wouldn't this make Democracy into a form of Dictatorship where no one person truly controls it, but instead an expansive group does??????


I may have rambled a bit. I just want to see what you all think about this, plus I think it ties into gay marriage pretty well.

MrOrange

We call that communism.

LordForcystus

lol, personally I call it socialism. Just because I believe we've never experienced true communism (and probably never will).

The-King

Good thinking but I totally dissagree. I think democracy works best out of all forms of governments at the moment (i see it getting worse since everybody is getting dumber/gullible ie by the hypnotic media). I think that if your a minority and don't like it, then leave the country go somewhere else or join the majority. I personally don't like the muslim minorities. Why? Because they are trying to change everyone and make everything fit for them other then they change when they go live in another country. For example, a few years ago, a town near mine didn't make christmas decorations in their shopping mall because muslims thought it was 'offensive'. I think that is a load of bull****. I think that they should assimilate into the population rather then trying to the change the population to them. ( i was gonna say more but I cut it short).

Ishanul

democracy isn't about equality and all that, thats whats in the Constitution. Democracy is really just about the right to vote.

James7

There will never be a perfect govertment. One that makes all the right choice and does what is always best for ALL of it's people.

Anarchy >

TheRussianLord

Please differentiate between democracy and a representative republic. The U.S. is (or pretends to be) a representative republic. Democracy is just a pretty word used to justify it.

Unregistered

Democracy does more than just work right. It may seem like it is getting more corrupt, but you are paying attention to the wrong people. People in america take advantage of the beautiful thing that democracy is, everyone wants to sit and watch tv and let people sort things out for them, instead of inconviniencing their own selves for the better.

You see you can make some of the people happy some of the times, but not all of the people all of the time. But when you go and compare, democracy gets as close as it as you can get. Because it requires fighting for your opinions and because it requires to to stand up and say no, something that baffles the people of america now, that are so highly sensitised to it.BECAUSE it requires the citizens to act like patriots and do whats right for their country, to inconvenience themselves for the greater good, democracy works.

If the government is corrupt, it is the work of the laziness of the people. Politicians are not corrupt, simply more clever, so as a free person it is your job to be even more clever than they are. You know why they call it representative? Because in a democracy the politicians are your avatar, they are the living breathing metaphor of what you want to see in your country, of all of your interests and what everyone wants to see happen. And if they simply stand up for their opinions a democracy will work easily and smoothly. But sometimes they don't, and there can be hell to pay for that. Which is why if it is corrupted democrasy has not failed you, but rather vice versa.

The phrase, "Do not think of what your country can do for you, but for what you can do for your country", is to me the motto of any good free person, one who knows to think for him or herself and put effort into making their opinion known.

I hope you see things from my point of view, that this was not too cheezy, and that I know what Im talking about instead of embarrassing myself.

LordForcystus

I entirely agree with democracy working the best but there's a famous quote (I can't remember who said it) which is: "It has been said that Democracy is the worst form of government ever tried, besides all of the other governments."

Personally I think that says it all. Others have been saying that "American Democracy" (I believe it's Representative Republic like TheRussianLord said) doesn't work because of the public. I agree there, my question wasn't "Does the political idea of Democracy work?" I asked "Does Democracy work?". And for Democracy to work, it must achieve the state that it was intended to. That is why I say Democracy doesn't work.

For example, Communism technically doesn't work. What you may call Communism is actually Socialism. What I mean by Communism is Marxist Communism, because that's the original. Marxist Communism was a revolutionary idea which was great on paper, but it doesn't work because human beings are too "in love" with having power. The reason it doesn't work, again, is the fact that people are involved, and since all the people who try to be "Communists" don't all think and act as Marx did, Communism doesn't work and probably never will.

Arpad-Dynasty

Democrasy is nothing but lies... No matter what we do, there will always be one guy calling the shots. For example, Lord quoted "Since a Majority is a Majority, then most people must vote/think the same way" - Look at Kosovo (Albanians making up the Majority of Southern Serbia)? Szekely Lands (Hungarians in the Middle of Rumania)? Russia (Too many to be named :P)? Volvojdina (Northern Serbian Hungarians). Slovakian Hungarians? - Lets face it, Democrasy sucks...



One last thing... THE GYPSIES! What about them eh? They make up a good population of 16 million in Europe yet people refuse to give them a slap of land to live on. Instead they are whiped and ridiculed by idiotic steriotypes...

Just for fun, I threw this in. Its actual testinomies by people in Transylvania (German, Hungarian and Roma) being prosecutaed by the Rumanians since 1918.. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

-Sorry for grammer

Arpad-Dynasty

For lazy people that won't follow the link. :P

All credit goes to [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Testimony No. 1.
On March 19, 1975, Mr. Ferenc Balla gave the following testimony: "I was born and raised in the village of Feketelak, Transylvania, population about one thousand, of which three-fourth were Hungarians and one-fourth Rumanians. We had two schools in the village. One for the Rumanians, and one for us, Hungarians. From 1919 to 1944 our school was maintained by the Hungarian Reformed (Calvinist) Church, whi1e the Romanian school was maintained by the State.
Early on the morning of October 16, 1944, Rumanian so1diers surrounded our village. Those who tried to escape into the woods were shot. Then Rumanian soldiers went from house to house, led by the Rumanian civilians from our village. They entered on1y the houses of the Hungarians. First they beat up every male member of the family, from the age of ten to ninety. Then they raped a11 the women, from the age of ten to ninety. They herded all the men together, and kept on beating and torturing them until many of them died. They took the young girls with them. Some of these gir1s were never seen again.
I was fifteen, and they beat me, too, with gun-butts and leather whips. My father was killed, and so was my mother.They raped my two sisters and took them away. I was 1ocked, together with other boys and men into the church, while they feasted all night in the village. Next morning they drove us away, on foot. Some of the men were so badly beaten, that they were unable to walk. These were kicked to death or shot on the road side.
Near the town of Sarmas we joined a huge herd of men, driven together from all the nearby towns and villages. They were all Hungarians. There must have been thousands of us. Many barefoot. Then they drove us for
six weeks, across the mountains, into old-Rumania. It was getting very cold, and we were fed only once a day some soup and dry bread. Many died along the road.
Then the Russians came and looked us over. They took only the young and the healthy. They took me, too. They put us on a train, and took us into Russia, where we worked building roads and bridges. I don't know what happened to the others who were left behind in the hands of the Rumanians. I have never met any one of them again.
When the Russians let me go in 1951, I went home, to Feketelak. The Rumanians called it Lacu. I found only one of my sisters there. From the Hungarians who lived there before only about one-third was left. Many of them died in the labor camps, I was told, and many of them stayed in old-Rumania, mostly in Bucharest, for they did not dare to return home.
Rumanians were ru1ing the village. They were brought mostly from Besarabia, and put into the houses of the Hungarians. They gave me a job on the state farm, but we were not allowed to speak Hungarian on the job. There was no more Hungarian school. I had an uncle who stayed in Bucharest as a carpenter, and I went to see him. Life was much better there for Hungarians, and so I decided to stay with him.
In October 1956 we heard the news of the uprising in Hungary. Rumors were circulating that something may happen soon in Transylvania, too. I wanted to be there, so I went back to Feketelak, on the bus. The very day I arrived to my sister's house, I was arrested, together with more than a dozen of other Hungarians. We were interrogated all night at the police station. They wanted us to confess that we were paid by the Americans to start a revolution against the Rumanian people. When they started working on our fingernails, we all confessed, and signed anything they wanted us to sign. We were taken to Kolozsvar, which is called Cluj by the Rumanians, and put into prison. In February we were sentenced by a court. I got fifteen years of hard labor, and was taken with many other Hungarians to the swamps of the Danube delta. We worked there like animals, waste-deep in the mud, digging canals. Many got sick and died.
In 1971 they let me go. They even gave me a job in Bucharest, collecting garbage. I was told that I could work there in peace as long as I lived, but if I dare to go back home they will put me in jail again, for they don't like Hungarians, they told me, who insist on staying in Transylvania.
In 1973 I was able to escape into Yugoslavia, and from there to Italy."


EDIT: May I also add, this wasn't only going on in Rumania during communism, after ?Ceasescu? fell out of power, this only worsened because the Rumanians wanted to 'Follow Out' his teachings of Rumanian supremacy.

BTW, what did the UN do?!? ... Nothing.

TheRussianLord

Your understanding of the subject is non-existant. If you want to seriously debate this point please define communism for me.

UnleashWC3

Democracy works just fine. Its when you throw Capatalism into the mix when things start going wrong. Free Market+Democracy= Eventual Break Down

King Stubby

I say that Democracy+Socialism= Da Bomb!

Arpad-Dynasty

Check the end of my second post TheRussianLord. Rumanian stills does this even if they are democrasy already. I posted that the bull**** worsened after the fall of communism in Rumania. ANd please be reminded there is about 20 years between WW1 and WW2 which they wern't communist, but rather some gay form of monarch-dmoncrasy.

TheRussianLord

Your post was very informative and very interesting. I, with my rather minor knowledge of Romanian and Hungarian history, enjoyed reading it. My comment was specifically in regards to what another member posted about communism. I am a communist, and am a part of a legitimate communist organization. So his attempts at pseudo-analysis are laughable to me.

Ayuoobi

Alright, i'm gonna try to keep this one short and sweet.

We as human beings are flawed. Everybody knows that, nobody is perfect. So for us to create a system, it will never be perfect. We cannot achieve perfection ALONE, which is where God comes in. It is my belief that He set a perfect sytem for us, but we chose to ignore it. But anywho, point is, no system today works, it's always flawed because we are flawed.


And King, don't hate on every muslim minority in the world because of a minority in your town. And that is pretty stupid, i must agree..That's actually against Islam, so i have no idea why they would do that. In the religon of Islam, we reserve the right for all peoples to celebrate whichever holidays they please, the way they want, unless it imposes on society. However, since aussie is mostly christian, it isnt imposing on society...So yea, i have no idea why they would do that, prolly just to get some attention, lol.

But this poses another question for me to ask you. Why do you care? Are the decorations really that important to you..? Imo, it just seems like your looking for an excuse to hate on them, because seriously, who cares. Ooh, you never got to see the green and red, big deal..Christmas isn't even a christian holiday anymore, it's a commercial holiday which big companies use to get you to spend thousands on gifts.

LordForcystus

Marxism (Classical Marxism)-
"The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society's allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society."
Communism-
"a system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people."

This will probably be my last post about Communism and Marxism because this is off topic.

TheRussianLord

Communist government is almost an oxymoron. That definition fails to distinguish between those who simply called themselves communists, and those who actually attempted creating a communist society.

kairge

Well, with a free market a country's economy does waaaaaay better than a restricted one. :P I saw the differences between the economy of a communist place and economies of places with free markets and it was like CAZAM. 10 times more moneys earned by free markets, or something like that.

Also, lord cystus, about the majority generation teaching their children things. People do have a mind of their own, you can teach them something when they're little but that does not mean they can make their own assessment of things. And there will always, always, ALWAYS be a group that rebels and starts to think for themselves. Just this recent group seems a little more... violent than the rest.

Sides, democrasy is a trial and error sort of thing so normally I doubt the same concepts would persist through many generations of intelligent people. President bush and the recent change from republican to democrat majority in the congress is living breathing proof of this. Only reason bush got relected was because he said he was the only one who could handle this and most everyone was duped into believing him because they were scared of terrorists.

Ishanul

What The Hell Does Market Economies Vs Command Economies Have To Do With Democracy?

Btw that is meant to be in caps.

kairge

Er... I edited it to be more relevant... I think...

Also, somebody says free market screws up democrasy. Thats why. :P

TheRussianLord

A free market does not work. Get over yourself. The US is not a free market. Its a strictly regulated and controlled market. Hence it's rather successful. Yet even here the presence of large financial structures that are not accountable to the people in anty way, yet have major power over peoples life, and indeed over the government, are making things worse.

King_Leopold

No economy is either purely a free mrket or a command economy, they are on a scale between the 2. The US is definetely closer to the free market end, then it is to the command side though.

Also, Russian, what does accountability to the people have to do with the market type.

Go to this link, now. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Arpad-Dynasty

I may be wrong at what you're getting at TheRussianLord, but the reason the a free market is controled is to avoid what happened in 1930's. I forget what the cycle is called =(. Its been 3 years since I've tooken business, kind of forget a lot in that time.