graal

Well, people usually say that capitalism isn't a good system, but it is better than all the others... (I don't know exactly the famous sentence, I would have to search and I'm kinda sleepy)

But my point is, isn't it time to find a new system? Specially taking into account everything that is happening to the environment, mainly because of the capitalism?

There probably wouldn't be so much resource waste if not for the capitalism, also we wouldn't be willing to sacrifice anything in exchange for money... (even the very planet we live on)

I believe we must find a new economic system, one that doesn't need people to consume as much as possible to exist... I've read somewhere that, if the chineses consumed as much as the Americans do, there wouldn't be enough resources in the world... so, think about it... we need to find a system that survives even without such consumerism.

King Stubby

we could put together a hodgepodge plan for an economy and then make a petition!

graal

Well, we would hardly be listened, but I think the first step is to have ideas... if we have good enough ideas, maybe we can change something.

King Stubby

Let's steal an idea from canada and britain and make going to the hospital free!

Royal Disaster

You are going to have to pay for it somewhere along the line. Doctors aren't doing it for free so the government has to pay for it. But wait, the government gets its money from us.

graal

That's exactly the problem, it is much more complex than most people imagine... the only way to end capitalism is if everybody work for non profitable reasons... but then, who is gonna work not having profits?

Can you imagine the world without banks? (or at least without interests, for that matter)

Maybe we wouldn't have to be that drastic and kill capitalism, maybe changing it, in some main areas, would be enough... I think the waste caused by the mass consume is the major problem right now... people buy new things even though they don't need them... most people try to change car every year, buy a new comp when there is a better one, also, all the products use a lot of packages, it is all waste, because all those things go to trash... maybe some can be recycled but after you recycle it, the material will always be less usefull, it has a life span anyway, you can recycle the same thing forever.

The first step, in my opinion is for population to consume less, avoiding the wastes.

Royal Disaster

Of course there will be people who will work for non profitable reasons. I'm sure there are plenty of people that want them and their family to starve to death.

LordForcystus

I think what you're thinking of is about democracy.
"It has been said the democracy is the worst kind of government ever tried...excluding all the other governments."


Also I believe (slightly off topic) we (United States) should adopt the French policy on how their presidents campaign. (as far as I know) The government pays for the campaigning of the presidential candidates, this allows the people that are truly capable of leading their country able to run whereas the people who are simply rich and not good at leading have a tougher time competing with competent candidates.

TheRussianLord

Well lets review. Capitalism is the prioritization of returning invested capital before taking care of the needs of society.

For example you have 1 000 000 dollars in the bank. It gives you 5% (50 000) interest every year. But to have a nice life you need 60 000 annually. A socialist would take the extra 10 000 out of the one million, while a capitalist would instead live crappily on 40 000 a year, but add 10 000 every year (increasing teh invested capital) so that his yearly yield of interest would go up. So essentially every system is capitalist to an extent. The question is how do you prevent a greed-oriented private enterprise capitalism from taking over society. That's not a question of economics. That's a question of social psychology.

Ayuoobi

You can't just "find a new system." New systems happen by revolution, that is the key signal that the system has phailed. Like i said in the other thread, human beings are flawed and we can never attain the perfect system, because we are flawed. Only a perfect human being can make and govern a perfect system. So at the end of the day, does it really matter? We'll progress, the system will always suck, and each system solves some problems but opens others. It isnt a matter of solving all problems, its a matter of decided which problems are the biggest/most important, and creating a system which offers a solution to those, meanwhile opening other, less important problems.

The-King

Agreed.

TheRussianLord

The thing is that the whole concept of a ''system'' is inapplicable to the modern world. Instead what we have is a system, that then gets ammended to make up for deficiencies along the way. Instead of a system based on principle, we have a mess of amendments and changes that pile on top of the original intent, eventually obscuring it. The end result becomes very unpleasant. This is how the representative republic of the founding fathers became a corrupt financial oligarchy.

Ayuoobi

Yes, but the original system of the founding fathers wasn't perfect anyways, was my point. It solved some problems while opening up others.

But yea, i agee with you on that point, the big corporations in america really do pull the strings...Like all governments, curroption is another factor.

Ishanul

and its the exact same thing with a socialist command economy.

Both need the people to be perfect for the economic system to be perfect. That is why all capitalist and socialist economies are edited and "customized"

TheRussianLord

Socialist economy doesn't work unless you already have a highly profitable economic basis. The thing is that a socialist economy means you provide for the needs of society, before returning invested capital.

Pogo

Communism is one of the most idealistic governments, because if it weren't for corruption and human nature, it would be perfect. Capitalism functions well with corruption, and the greed (or maybe motivation, same thing?) people have for money. So which is worse? Capitalism definitely isn't the best form of government, but no one else has come up with a better one to date, and even Communist countries such as the Peoples Republic of China have mixed economies, if only to take advantage of the money it will bring them.


Meh, we should just go back to the barter system. I'll trade my cow for your five chickens...

Stock

make it 6 chickens and you have yourself a deal

UnleashWC3

how many cows does it take for a BMW? or an assault rifle?

TheRussianLord

Capitalism doesn't work. America is not capitalist, or free market, and corruption is only one of it's problems (in addition to the dead-weight loss caused by monopolization and many other problems).

Pogo

Don't forget welfare. Those bums that don't work and put stress on our tax dollars because they would have to make do with less if they didn't work (Free housing, free money, what could go wrong?)

And yeah, its not entirely free market, its controlled by money, and you have to buy your way past the big companies, the ones that have been around a while that have those monopolies and are unwilling to give it up. Those that pay off the government to keep those monopolies, or who pay smaller companies to stick around, make a crappy product that makes their product look good, and have an appearance of not monopolizing the market. What concerns me about the country is that we used to have it great, one of the highest GDP's and GNP's in the world, but now everone's importing from China and other countries, outsourcing jobs to them, and making the other countries rich as the corporations lose less money.

Free Market users and Capitalists are what we call ourselves (Americans) to make us feel better about whats really happening behind the scenes, if we know what is happening, or to remain ignorant about it if we don't. Its sad, really.

Ishanul

I seem to remember a certain act that rendered Monopolies illegal.

Pogo

I seem to remember those acts being trampled over by big companies with the money to do so anyway. If people start to complain, the government might step in, but otherwise they leave it as it is. Think of the outrageous gas prices right now, and how oil companies are making huge profits simply by raising the prices simultaneously, while they have a bunch of oil stored and ready for use. Once again, money=power over the government. And we have trusts, which are simply monopolies divided into different companies, but controlled by the same person/group of people.

Ishanul

The fact is oil supply is slowing. A business won't just raise their prices to make more money. I'll give you that some companies exxagerate the problem. Prices raise for legit reasons. Its simple understanding of business competition.

TheRussianLord

Exactly. Anti-trust laws, federal reserve control over the interest rates, and firms large enough to have market power, all prevent capitalism and a free market from working. For capitalism to work you need perfect competition, and no government regulation. America doesn't have either one.

Pogo

They have the supply, and yet they're still making record profits recently. It doesn't matter that the price of the crude oil is rising, when they have huge stocks of processed oil, ready to go, and they're milking us for whatever money they can get before someone steps in.